"The Lord promised that He will change our hearts, but He didn't say when, He never promised it would happen in mortality. He only said it would happen."
Published in October of 2004, this anti-gay message explains that for a gay Mormon, suicide is more honorable and justified than engaging in a homosexual act. Mansfield’s co-authors are the parents of Stuart Matis who, at the age of 32, committed suicide because of an inability to reconcile his Mormon upbringing and his own homosexuality. They also continue to support LDS leaders, who perpetuate discrimination against the LGBT community.
As a practicing family therapist and doctoral student in Marriage and Family Therapy at Texas Tech University, Ty and his beliefs perpetuate a false hope that sexual orientation can be changed and that by way of Mormon doctrine homosexual lifestyles should be rejected and treated as an abhorrent practice. Through inaccurate and false counsel about homosexuality, in the past, gay men were advised to marry women claiming the temptation would subside. And while LDS leaders have stated they no longer perpetuate said advice, as Carol Lynn Pearson explains,
“Enough women have been sacrificed on that altar.”Mansfield and his fiancée Danielle Palmer have announced their wedding date as May 22nd 2010 in the Salt Lake City LDS temple.
22 comments:
This is so sad to me. Not only because I dont think that it is healthy for either of these two, but because it is sending false hope to many other people. And it perpetuates the belief that people can change thier sexuality at will, like a lot of fundamentalists believe. I was actually looking at a really interesting article on Wikipedia earlier today about this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_homosexuality
Its pretty spot and and lists a bunch of gay LDS members. Pretty interesting if you want to check it out.
Konrad
Wyatt,
Here is the question... are you called by God, by Jesus, by the Sacred, by Justice, by Truth, by common cause with humanity, by your own heart, mind and soul (each source legitimate) to be a spokesperson for gay rights within the Mormon Church and/or within conservative Christian communities generally?
If the answer is yes, then I respectfully recommend that you take up this cause in a formal way, by founding an organization and becoming a champion of gay rights in these communities.
You are passionate about the matter and you would be an effective spokesperson. However, your passion will be less effective if only strident - there has to be compassion even for those who are on the opposite side of the issue.
It will be important as well to maintain joy amidst the struggle for equality - otherwise you will pay too great a price.
From my faith perspective, you have been graced by God in your journey this far and I believe you will make a positive difference - but it is a mission like every other mission - taken with others and with the help of the sacred.
Blessings.
I read the courtship story written by Ty's fiancee and was dismayed to see that they have only dated for 3 months before getting engaged, and for most of that period they lived in different cities. The period of engagement is less than two months. Danielle writes her account in a recognizable sentimental style that indicates sexual infatuation ("he's so handsome!" "he's the kind of man I've dreamed of marrying" etc.).
If I had any advice to give this couple, it would be to extend the period of engagement and truly work through the issues after the initial period of infatuation has had a chance to cool. (I'm not a big fan of quick engagements for anyone.)
I expect this couple will have more trouble than they are expecting. It wouldn't be the first time this happened. But I absolutely support their right to find out for themselves, and I wish them the best of luck.
I've had people tell me that I'm as bigoted toward mixed-orientation marriages as the LDS Church is toward gay marriage. I have to smile when I hear this. While it's true that I think young people should be cautioned about the problems of mixed-orientation marriage and advised against it, there's a huge difference between me and gay marriage opponents: I fully support Ty's and Danielle's right to self determination, while the LDS Church is actively trying to ensure that my boyfriend and I are legal strangers. I, for example, don't think that Ty and Danielle should be denied Social Security survivor benefits, as the LDS Church insists should be the case with me and my boyfriend. I don't think Ty's and Danielle's future children should be denied health insurance or any of the hundreds of other protections that we give people who partner together in life. The tent is big enough that nontraditional couples should be given a chance. It's too bad that Ty and his church don't want to extend that same courtesy to me.
Tenets.
Dear Danielle,
He's GAY!
You need to watch this.
Is this tragic or pathetic? If the couple is Temple-worthy then they haven't done it yet: Do you think he already knows she doesn't have a penis he can play with?
The only thing noble about this sham marriage is that the soon-to-be-wife at least was given informed consent. She shouldn't later be heard to complain when she finally realizes her man ain't never gonna be straight or be into her junk. She deserves no sympathy. People should be perfectly free to knowingly enter into a sexless marriage. She and he are responsible for their own expectations, even ridiculous ones like "the invisible sky god will fix me." I just don't want to hear it when they are disappointed, and I hope they don't ever get pregnant. You know, when the "test it out" to see if invisible sky god fixed him...
Why should he bother waiting?
He is never going to feel the same way about her that a heterosexual man should be capable of.
Why postpone the start of a life based in lies.
This is why some of us blog about our lives. Been there and done that and life was a miserable as a result - a life that can be avoided. Why lie to yourself that you can make it work if you just admit a problem up front? I agree with Carol Lynn Pearson's idea that enough women (and men) have been sacrificed on the altar of Mormonism especially in regards to this issue.
I had a huge post on the intellectual dishonesty that results from the Mormon way of thinking and culture. This seems to be yet another casualty to that way of thinking. Another blogger said we shouldn't judge but what else can you do here? It would be like a bird marrying a fish. What a nice idea but where do they make a home. It almost seems to be a mockery of love - it's not really important because it will be fixed in the next life. Duty to the institution of the church does not supersede duty to yourself. (It just turns my stomach.)
Or perhaps, just perhaps, this is a deliberate (almost apologetic) PR move by the church. I'm sure the book will fly off the shelves of every Deseret bookstore. Maybe Mormonism is making a move to take the Evangelical stance of homosexuality being an abhorrent sin. Will they start endorsing the stance of Focus on the Family?
Time will be the ultimate decider of this one too. Will they suffer through it for their faith and desire to be self proclaimed martyrs as Joe Smith was, will it end miserably... who knows?
What this young man probably hasn't taken into consideration, (which HOPEFULLY HE WILL, AND SOON!) Is that there are some in his family who are probably VERY aware that most of the Dogmas in the Mormon Church are BOGUS! What is NOT bogus however, is the 'Veil' which basically separates our understanding of our earthly existence, from the existence of a more advanced, allegedly 'superior' intelligence. The 'Veil' is designed to protect that advanced intelligence. It is merely just another cog in the wheel of keeping people 'ignorant,' through 'fear.' Keeping them fearful, keeps them from becoming 'smart.' 'Smart' is NOT necessarily what an advanced intelligence wants... get it yet???
Being a born-again Christian who has been a part of conservative churches for years, I am afraid for both of them. I am a gay man who also believed that God wanted to change my sexuality...until I stopped listening to church teaching and studied the Bible. If a man is already married and discovers/recognizes/admits he is gay and wants to stay in the marriage because of the committment he made -- I HAVE THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR HIM! However, going into a heterosexual marriage as a gay man is a bit naive. I have devastated my ex-wife and hurt my children because after 13 years of marriage I couldn't fake it anymore. Behavior modification does not erase gay attraction anymore than it does straight attraction. After abstinence you are still gay or straight. A great book on this is called "What Did Jesus Say? by K. Darnell Giles. You can get it on amazon. My advice is don't do it. Love her as a brother. If not, you will hurt her and yourself...and coming back from the damage is almost impossible.
Wow....Now you have to come to Kale's wedding on the 22nd. Not only will you get to be there for your brother on his big day but as a bonus you'll get to witness Ty Mansfield "cure" himself of his homo"sin"uality.
Holy crap! Scott just told me that is the same day as Kales wedding. Did you notice that?
Congrats Ty! I was married a year ago and it has been fantastic. Don't worry about what others say. Hopefully, some day we will live in a world where people aren't so caught up in telling other people what they should do with their lives.
Knowing Ty, I believe Ty is in love and ultimately that is what matters. It is possible for people - Christians and non Christians - to love and be attracted to members of both sexes. I do believe some people are born gay. I also believe that some people have issues that do not make them gay but they become confused when they are not able to openly process thee emotions due to conservative environments that tell them to ignore it. I also think some people are born with asexual feelings that make them feel lost in the middle.
Regardless, judgment from either side of this argument or any other is simply that - judgment. We should hope and pray for the best and unless you know Ty you can't know this will or will not fail.
(PS I deleted my previous comment so I could subscribe to follow ups)
I'm not sure anyone is saying he's not in love - we're just pointing out that he's gay and she's a (presumably) straight woman. That's all.
No matter how in love or emotionally attached a gay man is to a woman, a mutually beneficial, loving, respectful, and healthy sexual relationship is just not possible. Now perhaps Ty is bi, if that's the case, then I hope it works out.
The real point is, is that it is unfair, cruel, and downright evil of the LDS church to treat its gay members so horribly (and to try and force those views on the rest of us too). To tell a person they either have to be celibate or marry someone they don't have a natural attraction for is disgusting and manipulative. It's unhealthy and exploitative. A god which really expects that sort of behaviour is an asshole and doesn't deserve the respect let alone worship of any of you.
And unfortunately Ty has invested a lot in defending this paradigm. I only feel sorry for him and his wife for the ridiculous and unfair situation they're in now.
I think he can have dealt with his issues successfully. Again I think many people are born gay and many people are convinced they are gay due to many issues. I am not always in love with my husband and have my own issues from childhood and conservative churches that I am working through but I don't use that as a reason to say well I can't help this. Sometimes you can - and if you can you should. Everyone's life experience is different. Some go to prison, some do drugs, etc. Until we walk in an individual's personal shoes we can't they can or can't. Neither you nor I can know if this will be successful. We can just know if they believe it can and hope and pray for their best.
I am not debating LDS as I am not LDS therefore am not equipped to handle that argument. But I am a non conservative Christian and I can say I had a lot of conservative Christians and non Christians alike really judge me and tell me I couldn't change - I was who I was, etc etc me after I can home from prison almost 14 years ago. The same thing happened to my husband. Since then we've struggled through but we're successful and we've made it through.
More than anything I just hate to see the judgment. I understand it but it's not always beneficial to expect the worst in a situation you don't understand or are walking through. Sometimes just hope and peace are enough and you'd be surprised at how much that hope and peace will change the world as opposed to the judgment and hugely bipartisan lives we lead destroy us. This is related to Christians and non-Christians a like. I see many liberal Christians or non Christians say don't judge but they turn and do the same to those who are conservative.
Anyway - I hope you understand I am not being argumentative. Life is about differing beliefs. Just knowing Ty personally and not being LDS I wanted to offer a differing opinion.
You might have that belief, but it's not reality-based. There is no evidence that people get "confused" and just "think" they're gay. Sexual orientation is a permanent, unchangeable thing. Sure, some gay people learn to have some modicum of a heterosexual behaviour , but they're still gay, and still very far from a true heterosexual relationship. A person can sublimate their sexuality for a great many reasons, religion being the main one, but it's never healthy.
I can only speak from my own experiences. I tend to struggle with more of an asexuality but in general I agree you can run from the truth but mistruth can also be perpetuated. You can believe you're gay from one isolated experience rather than processing that experience and realizing how or why it effected you the way it did or you can believe you're not gay because you do not want to be and both cause major issues.
Oh my. So many people have bought into the world's notion that sex is all that matters.
Have you not heard of couples like Christopher Reeve and his wife, who proclaimed their love to be even greated after struggling with his quadriplegia? They were MATURE. They had a love that transcended sexual desire.
Why is it impossible for anyone to believe a person with same-gender attraction could be that mature? Could transcend sexual tendencies and love A PERSON for who they are?
What do you think love IS??
Yes, this couple has a very limited perspective, because they are just starting out. They're pure virgins who live in a warped impure world.
But calling their beliefs false and saying they have false hope? They never said they hope his sexual tendencies will change because of their marriage. They are saying they can build a marriage on the remaining tenets of the institution: respect, charity, compassion, LOVE.
It is possible for some of us to care about those things MORE than sexual gratification. In fact- if should be every Christian person's quest.
I applaud them, and pray for them They'll need it.
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